Thanks for kicking me out

[mueckchen]

illicit,
you say that I am still apparently not getting it. To be honest, this is what I was thinking of your post, too. You may ask as often as you like - looking at it from a different angle could always lead to the judgement that I understood everything very well, but you did not. This leads to the situation of same question and same answers 50 times. This is not really of any use, I think. This is not my intention and I am willing to believe that it is not yours, too.

Right from the first answers in this thread I understood that the ET officials stated that Zappler was kicked out by accident. I never said that this is not true. I said it is not true that he was inactive. So he was kicked out for being on the inactivity list by mistake. illicit, I understood that. I really understood - ok ? Even my 11 years old son could understand that.

It's your turn to understand now, so please read carefully.
I do not want anything from anybody. This discussion has had its dynamical evolution. So all I do is just replying to the last post. Nothing more. All I can hope is that something like this will not happen so easily again - especially after warnings about unclear official statements of the adminstration. Perhaps you will like to study a few additional threads in the forum. It is my duty as Ligretto GM to do everything to avoid something like this happening again (as ET's officials do their duty). But I can't. The ET officials can. Again - there's nothing more behind all this. Quite simple stuff.

I will definitely not join your level regarding paranoia accusations etc. But I always appreciate your readiness to show deeper stratums of your nature, because I am willing to learn a bit each day - especially when it's entertainig.

mueckchen

[illicit]

Naoki, I didn't understand half of what you said, but let's clear one thing up. I read the entire 2 pages of this before responding. The only post I actually skimmed and didn't read carefully was yours, since it was so difficult for me to read (but I was trying to use a little tact). No one ever said Zappler was kicked for being homeless. Boomer said "We recently removed 23 people that were homeless and inactive for several months." I added the emphasis on inactive for those of you who are still not getting it.

I know exactly when Zappler was kicked (April 13th) and I know exactly why. There is no cover-up. Boomer sent me the list and said "we kicked out 23 more inactives who were also on the homeless list". INACTIVES is the operative word here. If he was NOT inactive, it was a mistake. Boomer apologized. Dave apologized. Lepidus apologized. I even apologized. I think it was EXTREMELY big of Boomer to apologize for a very simple and easily made (and rectified) mistake even after being attacked publically.

I think you need to get your priorities in order here. This was not a disaster of any kind. It was an error that could have been easily and quietly rectified until Boomer was attacked in a public forum for making a mistake. How often is he praised for all the work he does for ET and BSW? How often have you thanked him?

My ENTIRELY SEPARATE point, which has nothing to do with why he was actually kicked out (for being inactive), is that if he was not inactive, why wasn't he housed? Why would he make more work for ET by waiting until the last possible moment? Since he was active he had to know about this requirement. Everyone knows how huge the town is. Anyone could put 2 and 2 together and figure out how much work it would have to be to get all of our homeless housed. Please address my point, Naoki. You want to complain about how horribly Zappler was treated... did you make an effort to house him? Did you make an effort to house anyone? You and so many others want to complain when something goes wrong, but what do you do to try and help insure that things DON'T go wrong? How many homeless are on your watch list?

Boomer is human. Mistakes happen. If you want them to happen less often I suggest you volunteer to help some and not assume that 6 people can handle a town the size of ET without ever making a single mistake.

[illicit]

mueckcken, so you want to insure that nothing like this ever happens again? Good, thank you. We would appreciate that. We currently have 27 homeless. Please email me for the list so you can add them to your watch list and get them housed. Now if more people had that attitude I am actually quite sure this very simple mistake never would have happened. Thank you for volunteering. You have 2 days to get the rest of them housed.

Amy

[mueckchen]

illicit,

I knew why I asked you to "read carefully" *sigh*  
To cut a long story short: I really would appreciate ET's administration doing their job carefully. For me there is no reason to do a job that was given to you, as I have my own jobs to do here.

mueckchen

[illicit]

Sorry mueckcken, I thought you said you wanted to insure nothing like this would ever happen again. Others volunteering to help house the homeless is the only way to do that.

[mueckchen]

All I can hope is that something like this will not happen so easily again - especially after warnings about unclear official statements of the adminstration. Perhaps you will like to study a few additional threads in the forum. It is my duty as Ligretto GM to do everything to avoid something like this happening again (as ET's officials do their duty). But I can't. The ET officials can. Again - there's nothing more behind all this. Quite simple stuff.

Nice try, though. Perhaps you could do the bugs job meanwhile? I could imagine to change the job with you? (Of course if TAMM agrees)

[illicit]

Ok, so you are refusing to help with this? Got it.

And by the way, this job was not assigned or given to me. I volunteered. I don't deserve a pat on the back for it. I see how much work Boomer does and I gladly help in any way I can (and you are very wrong if you think this is the only thing I do for ET). But what I cannot abide is seeing a friend of mine attacked for absolutely no reason when so many people are so unwilling to help... and oh so willing to complain (especially publically).

Also, I have read every single post made by Boomer. He has never been unclear. When the meta game changes forced him to change a policy, he did so. This wasn't unclear to me. I am sorry you found it so difficult to follow.

[mueckchen]

Come on - it's obvious you did not get it.
I will continue my work for the guild. That's my role in this game. I asked you to take over another job of mine so I had time to take over yours for a few days. I bet you understood that. I'm also very sorry you found it so difficult to follow.

Volunteering or not - counting peas. When you volunteer, you still need someone to give you the job. But that's not the topic. I am really not interested in what your jobs are. You asked me to do a part of your job and I asked you to do a part of my job then. I thought this was easy to understand.

By the way - when you  can't abide seeing a friend of yours attacked for absolutely no reason when so many people are so unwilling to help, you are coming closer to the core. This makes me hope that we will meet in at least one topic of this discussion soon.

Of course I can not take your statement about not knowing anything unclear / irritating in the forum too serious. But your angle of view must be different somehow, so that's ok for me.

[NaokiAiba]

illicit, let me address your point first. Your emphasis on the word inactive is cool enough, thank you for highlighting it. However, if the whole passage is read, of course without your highlight, what information reader would be expected to get? Certainly, immediate cause is:    kicked because of homeless.    Communication is not only a matter of what the writer writes, but also a matter of what the readers are directed to read.

--------------------------------------------------------

illicit, my watch list is full of ARMfelders from W1 who have their majority of games as PuertoRico and are pending my poaching to Hanse towns including ET and then my guild. I hope I could house them with PR gamerooms and therefore I keep following them up the whole-way. Would you mind sharing some space on your watch list to me so that more ARMfelders join Hanse towns (ET for example) and then my guild? I will return you with some space in my watch list so that you can get ET citizens housed. You might notice that, if our watch lists combined, the effective time covers all 24 hours. Fair... err... PERFECT enough? Wanna get into it?

But please wait a moment...... aren't you blaming me for not offering this deal few weeks ago? The standard response is that "did you asked (for others' offer of voluntary task) few weeks ago?" That's what I mean by lack of communication, not to mention mis-highlighted information in the first explanation.

I find kicked-for-homeless not scary since details are boardcasted, but the kick before the pre-said deadline without notice is of real scare. Watching what is the next on the ET's agenda, if I had believed the kick-before-deadline explanation, it would not have been difficult to see to what extend I would believe the closure of gameroom is not before the said time (June/July), even the time was said 50 times...... illicit, if you were me and I were the ARMfeld W2, you would find how persuasive you would be to invite me to ET and then the guild, both to you and to me, even the closure time was heard for 50 times. However, I repeat, I keep persuading myself the kicked-due-to-misplacement. Therefore, without the mentioned scare, I will discuss this issue in the different thread without this scare.

I REPEAT AGAIN, I will discuss the gameroom closure issue in another thread SINCE I keep persuading myself the kicked-due-to-misplacement explanation.

Finally, though this argument is like the legs of snakes in this stage, I get to repeat: I trust mueckchen's witness on Zappler's activity.

[Legs of Snakes: Do you draw legs when you draw snakes?
This joke is found in a letter between BOTs posted on the BBS outside BSW (both .de and .info) of another Hanse town, but I get to say, that's snake, not sneak.]

[Soledad]

Look at that, we got an honorable mention in the infamous "with friends like this, who needs enemies" thread

[illicit]

Naoki, I really wish you spoke English, because then you would see I never doubted that mueckchen was telling the truth about Zappler's activities. I was not the one calling someone else a liar (mueckchen was calling Boomer a liar, but no one called mueckchen a liar). Whether Zappler was actually online or not was never my point. But since you will never understand my point, I'm through with you regarding this.

And if I am deciphering your post correctly, I see you are still worried aout game rooms being closed? Had you been at the town meeting last night you would know that that's a non-issue. Your game room isn't going to be closed.

What other complaints did you have? I'll try to help you however I can.

[daveb02]

I think this post has gone on long enough and unfortunately it would seem as though a lot of irreparable damage has been done.  This is most unfortunate.

This all started because we mistakenly removed someone from English Town.  Mistakes happen.  Everyone knows this.  It is unfortunate that they occur.  However, it is how we react to those mistakes that is the key.  And I must say we as the Town Council of English Town have created a disaster by our reaction.

We made a mistake by tossing out Zappler, he was angry and mueckchen stepped in on behalf of someone in his guild.  Der mueck made a very good point that we had not considered before but perhaps in the future we should.  And that is that when someone is a guild member and has influence points, that should be factored into the removal of citizens for inactivity or other reasons.  I will address what we should do about his point later and another thread.  In response, the Town Council got defensive and turned the discussion into how much work it is to do fill these roles, not enough people volunteer to help and the person we removed never did anything in EnglishTown.  Whether these may or may not be true is not the relevant point.  As leaders of the town, it is our job not to put citizens or former citizens down.  The site is free, true.  There is governance, also true.  However, we must also recognize that there are also certain expectations from that governance (I am not referring to any specific incident past or present).  When there is the perception on a citizen's part that those expectations have not been met, they may choose to speak up about it as mueckchen, Zappler and NaokiAiba have.  When they do, it is our job to address those concerns as best we can without making those people who bring up an issue or anyone else who may read feel as though they are just a bunch of complainers or continue to draw out discussions.  We did such a poor job in that respect that we lost a decorated citizen and guild master in mueckchen who left EnglishTown and will not likely ever come back.  This is too bad.  I don't know if anyone else left as a result, but i hope not.

All the discussion and actions caused concern by NaokiAiba that we set one standard and follow a different one.  I do not believe either Naoki's or mueckchen's concerns were malicious or overly critical but the Town Council reacted in a defensive manner to Naoki as well.   This is where we failed as a Town Council.  We thought about only our own reactions and immediately posted our thoughts.  What we did not consider is how would the other citizens of ET react to what we say that were not even part of the discussion.  We have no idea if anyone who did not post a reaction read the forum.  I hope not.  But, it is possible everyone in town has read this thread.  What do they think?  It would be nice to have volunteers to help with various things (the Western Hemisphere league comes to mind).  But the reality is, there is no requirement as a citizen of ET to participate in these things and maybe a lot of people just do not know how or just want to game.  I do know a lot of people do not read the forum and may not know about it just by the way things get reported to me as security chief.  I am not sure how to change the perception of using the forum but that may be an idea we need to address as well (separately - not in this thread).  But, I think there may be a lot of people alienated by the things that have been said in this forum thread.  I hope that is not the case.  We have to also remember that ET is rather unique in BSW in that it is the most global/international town here and attracts people from all over the world.  Therefore, we may have such issues as language barriers, culture differences, etc. that we need to consider prior to launching into a response to any issues that are brought up here.

This particular thread has now gained unfavorable attention in other areas of BSW, and not noticed only by ET citizens.  I hope we do not alienate others who may want to join the town or have the town become a laughing stock.  ET also enjoys the privilege of being the largest city outside of ARMfeld.  Because of our size, there are a lot of people who pay a surprising amount of attention to what we do and the things that go on here.  While we should not plan every action or word as though we are under a microscope, we must remember that we are town officials and that what we say may be read by a lot of unanticipated viewers and potentailly misinterpreted if English is not their primary language.  Some of whom are curious about what goes on in the big town, others who just want to practice English and others for whatever reason.

For the other members of the Town Council, please do not take this as a personal criticism.  I am not trying to single out any one word, phrase or person here.  I kept my silence after my initial post because I was hoping the issue would be settled and I really did not know what else to say until now.  I just want to try and bring some sort of conclusion to this discussion without everyone being angry, alienated, alarmed, etc. with other citizens and council members.  Thank you for those who said the nice things about us.  It is good to hear support.  For all who expressed opinions, I thank all of you.  Unfortunately, it took a town mistake to get some participation in the forum - something we have not had much of recently.  We will try to do better for you in the future.

daveb02

PS - since I may have some extra attention here - to the guild masters and administrators - I am starting another thread regarding influence and end of month purging for inacitivity to address mueckchen's initial question.

[RavenBlack]

Addressing the question of what people uninvolved might think upon seeing the statements made by the administration; I just read this thread and I thought TheBoomer and illicit were extremely reasonable in the face of ridiculous incendiary posts. If anything it seemed that they were too nice, and too conciliatory. Personally I'd have liked to see "okay, bye then!" as a response to people threatening to leave.

To me it looked like mueckchen was being deliberately frustrating and actively trying to goad both TheBoomer and illicit into anger.